Jonathan 00:15

My name is Jonathan. Yeah, I was invited by you guys into this because you wanted to hear about couples? So I said yes. Why not?

Mariya  00:25  

(Jonathan is the partner of Su, one of the Voices to end FGM/C storytellers. He grew up partly in the UK, partly in Spain. She grew up in a different European country that she prefers not to mention, Jonathan and Su met at a party one night. For some reason, Su’s daughter, who was an elementary school at the time really liked him and asked if she could paint his fingernails. The fact that he freely allowed her to do so was a good sign for Su.)

Jonathan  00:55  

Of course I knew about it, but it seemed like something far away. Something that’s in the news or something that’s in some faraway country, but I never actually paid attention, or actually, I mean,

at the beginning, like, I felt very sorry, like, that, she’d had to go through it.

Mariya  01:16  

(Jonathan is talking about when he first learned that Su had been cut. Like me, she grew up in a Dawoodi Bohra community. As I spoke with Jonathan and Su, I thought maybe I’d hear about their relationship, and about how Su being a survivor does or doesn’t affect their life together. But instead, a different story came up. I’m Mariya Taher. Welcome to the Voices Podcast, Episode Three, The Meeting. As a reminder, this podcast includes frank discussions about what female genital mutilation and cutting is, and how survivors can be affected in terms of their physical and mental health.)

Su  01:58  

Last year, I went to a wedding. Jonathan and my kids went.

Mariya  02:03  

(At the time of this trip, Jonathan and Su had been together for nine years. Being at that wedding of one of her relatives made her reflect on how marriage isn’t just about the people getting married. It’s really also about, or maybe even more about, their entire families.)

Su  02:19  

We are not married by the community. And my mother was thinking, okay, maybe you can start this conversation with the community, if you want to get married. We actually don’t want to get married. But we thought, okay, after so many years, fighting with the … so many things in the community, so we thought, okay, just we can do the ritual. 

Jonathan  02:43  

Yeah to make your mother happy. Yeah, we were going to get married within the community. 

Mariya  02:49    

(Even though they don’t feel the need to be married to know they’re committed to their relationship, Jonathan and Su agreed to contact the Bohra leader whose permission they would need for a wedding. In Bohra culture, it’s generally not okay to marry outside the faith. But exceptions are made. So they thought, well, let’s just see what happens.) 

Su  03:07 

They asked us for a meeting. And then Jonathan and me, we went. And he talked– all the conversation in Gujarati, but I made sure I answered in English, because I had a little bit of difficulty talking in Gujarati with these issues. And it was really shocking, because the only thing they focused on is because if we want to get married, well, all the conversation there, was to talk about khatna. 

Mariya  03:35

(So in the middle of what was supposed to be a conversation about whether Jonathan and Su could get married, the Bohra religious leader launched into a lecture about khatna. He made it clear that he was upset about the fact that a young female relative of Su’s had not been cut. If you’re wondering how he knew this, it’s typical for these leaders to keep close tabs on their community members. He also tried to suggest that women who don’t undergo khatna are likely to get involved in prostitution and pornography. Su was surprised by all of this, because khatna is not something that’s typically discussed openly, either within the Bohra community or in front of people who are not Bohris.)

Su  04:14

I was really shocked because okay, I know that to talk about the khatna, like, it’s a taboo, but in front of a person who’s not from the community. He started talking about why we do that. Because to avoid prostitution, he talked about prostitution. And he talked about pornography. And he talked about purity. And it was to protect the woman.

Jonathan  04:40

Yeah he was … he was explaining how the body works and how to get pleasure. Like, she is a doctor, but she doesn’t know how a woman’s body works. He had to explain it to her …

Mariya  04:55

(In case you didn’t catch Jonathan’s comment, he brought up the fact that Su is a doctor. So here was this religious figure, lecturing a health provider who had been thoroughly trained on human anatomy and physiology about why he believes khatna is a good thing for women. This is where I think we need some backstory, so bear with me.

Khatna has been practiced by Bohris for centuries. All the usual reasons that communities point to, to justify FGM/C, are given. It keeps a Bohra woman from being too sexual. It makes them faithful to their husbands. It protects their purity. It’s good for maintaining cleanliness and so on. While khatna is not mentioned in the Quran, it is present in some other religious texts, including a few contested hadiths, which are considered to be records of the words and actions of the Prophet Muhammad, as transmitted through chains of narrators. For the Bohras, khatna is also mentioned in a scripture called the Daim al Islam, which is a code of conduct and Islamic jurisprudence written in the 12th century and used by several other Shia Muslim sects. But none of this means that khatna has to continue today. Leaders of many different faiths have renounced other practices that harm people, like polygamy and slavery. So there’s no reason why religious leaders couldn’t also come out against khatna. It can clearly cause harm, and this is the reason it should not be continued, regardless of whether it’s viewed as religiously sanctioned.

Even though FGM/C is considered a patriarchal practice, it’s usually women who ensure it continues generation after generation. This is true for Bohra girls, who are cut by women when they’re around seven years old. In my work with the Bohra community, we call the practice female genital cutting, or FGC. This is to avoid defensiveness in response to using terms like mutilation when we’re trying to have conversations about ending the practice. But the Voices project uses FGM/C, because we’re working with all practicing communities who define the issue in a number of different ways.

One of the first Bohra women to speak publicly about cutting was Rehana Ghadially. In 1991, she interviewed about 50 Bohra women and wrote an article about their experiences of being cut, and her own. She revealed that khatna had been kept an absolute secret not only from outsiders, but also from most of the men in the community, who didn’t find out about it until they got married or had a daughter. 

More and more Bohra women have been saying they want the tradition to end. In 2016, in Australia, three people, including a former midwife, a mother of two girls, and a Dawoodi Bohra community leader, were sentenced to 15 months in prison for cutting two young girls. I actually had no illusions that this would prompt the Bohras to abandon khatna, but I did note that it would elevate the internal conversation happening in the Bohra community and bring a lot of attention to the community. Sure enough, after the verdict in the case was announced, the Dawoodi Bohra Syedna gave a public speech. He’s the highest strength religious leader in the community. A video was distributed on WhatsApp and online, and some of his remarks were translated into English. He said, “whatever the world says we should be strong and firm. What are they telling us? that what we are doing is wrong? Who are they to teach us?”

Bohras do practice male khatna or circumcision. Referring to male and female khatna, the Syedna said “It must be done. If it is a man, it can be done openly. If it is a woman, it must be discreet. But the act must be done. Let them say it. We are not scared of anyone.”

At the highest level, the Syedna affirmed a procedure that has no known health benefits for women, but can lead to many proven physical and mental health complications. He reinforced the secrecy that surrounds female khatna. And he said the community had nothing to be afraid of.

Like the words of other leaders who tell their followers to do things that most people would identify as profoundly wrong, the Syedna’s words do trickle down the levels of hierarchy to other Bohra religious leaders.) 

Jonathan  09:10

He didn’t talk to me, actually, he avoided me completely, because I think he knew English, but he was just trying to convince her that what he was saying was what’s to be done. 

Su  09:14

I don’t think he was convincing me. I think he knew I was a little bit …da da da, in the head as they say, and he wanted just to provoke.

Mariya  09:36

(The Bohra community is an insular, tight knit community, and you don’t question traditions or customs, at least not publicly or in the presence of religious leaders. Bohra traditions range from pretty harmless things, like having a pinch of salt before a meal because it aids digestion, to really serious things, like khatna. In many cases, families are cautioned or warned against so called “deviant behaviors.” This leader knew that Su is against khatna. She feels that he was trying to throw off the conversation just so he didn’t have to come out and say, “no, you can’t marry someone who’s not one of us.”)

Jonathan  10:14 

By the gestures, at the beginning, it seemed like a friendly conversation. And I thought we were going to leave that room with kind of like a marriage kind of situation, or something where we could sign some papers, and we could officially make her mother happy. But suddenly, the tone was going up and up. And I could hear things like “feminism” or “women.”

Mariya  10:46

(At that stage, neither of them were imagining a wedding.) 

Su  10:51 

So we didn’t get married. It was really scary, what he was saying.

Mariya  10:57  

I understand that. I feel like I’m thinking about my own experiences with religious leaders, too.

(What I should have said, there, is that I’ve had experiences with the wives of religious leaders. They’re considered holy through marriage, which means that women in the community always defer to them. When I was 19, or 20, there was this guy from India who was interested in me. So my parents, themselves pressured by their religious leaders, then pressured me into a date with this guy. He was what people in the community would call “modern,” because he was okay with women working. Obviously, that would need to be a given for me. But I just really didn’t enjoy being with him.

I told my parents I wasn’t interested. Apparently, he was. And he went to the religious leader in our area, whose wife, one of those religious wives I was supposed to obey, called my parents and tried to get them to convince me to give him a chance. She even asked for my number and called me. She told me I didn’t have to get engaged right away, but that I should, “give it a go.” It was an awkward call.

That experience, and the Syedna’s remarks about khatna in the wake of the Australian court case, and Su and Jonathan’s meeting with the Bohri leader all stand in sharp contrast to the public image that the Bohra community tries to maintain. They’re really savvy about PR; they produce videos about the wonderful work they do, and about how progressive they are. We wanted to include some audio from one of these, but we were worried about backlash. I’ll just quote the narration: 

“The Dawoodi Bohras are united by a belief in the value of society, education, women’s empowerment, engagement with other faiths, physical health and well-being, and a responsibility to care for the environment and all creatures that dwell within it.”

These feel like beliefs that lots of people could get behind. Yet, I don’t see how a belief in health and well-being and women’s empowerment fits with cutting little girls. Anyway, let’s hear a bit more of my conversation with Su and Jonathan. I asked what they had to say about the importance of speaking out against khatna, especially in the wake of that crazy meeting.)

Jonathan  13:08  

I guess men, we kind of feel disconnected to the theme. Because I mean, I wouldn’t … I wouldn’t have been here if it wasn’t, like, it was specifically asked for us as a couple to be here, right, and to speak. I guess it hadn’t occurred to me to actually use my voice for this project, because I’ve always tried to help or to be supportive with her struggle, in the way that she puts her voice towards this. But actually, I didn’t think my voice would be … I mean, I didn’t have that much to say, right? And maybe the men that are inside of these communities and have gone out of the community, maybe those voices should be heard as well. They have probably more to say.

Mariya  13:59

(Su, and I agree with Jonathan that men could and should be more involved in these discussions. It’s a little confusing why brothers, fathers, and husbands aren’t more willing to say something. For the Bohra community, Su thinks it has something to do with how closed people are, when it comes to women’s sexuality.”)

Su  14:21 

This society, we are in the 21st century. And even now, you can’t talk about sexuality openly. Women’s sexuality is really erased. And only there is only one way of having our sexuality, which is the one we know, the mainstream, but we don’t talk about different types. And all these types of FGM, it’s about controlling the woman’s body. It’s the ultimate way, because in the community, the khatna is just one of the icebergs that is visible.

Mariya  15:01  

I wanted to shift gears a little bit. You mentioned you wrote poetry, and you did that for the Voices story. It’s really a critique of the insensitivity that women who have had FGM/C have to endure, at the hands of the medical establishment. Could you talk about just why you chose that topic?

Su  15:23

When you, you offered this possibility to write something about FGM, like, I was pregnant with my third child, actually. So I thought about, I wanted to relate all this position that we undero the FGM, lithotomy position, this position. That is really the gynecologist position that the makes you really vulnerable, exposed. 

Mariya  15:50

(Su called her story Lithotomy Position. This involves lying on your back on a table, with your legs flexed 90 degrees at your hips and supported by foot rests. Even though the position is named for its connection with lithotomy, a procedure to remove bladder stones, it’s more commonly used for women giving birth. Some doctors prefer it, because it gives them better access to both mother and baby. But the lithotomy position actually lowers blood pressure, which can make contractions more painful and draw out the birthing process. 

Su  16:22

My first delivery was really traumatic also. And so I wanted to relate these, both experiences and to tackle the patriarchy behind it, and all the structures that are behind a woman being held like that, in the, in this position. 

Mariya  16:45 

(In the video she made with the Voices project, Su doesn’t talk explicitly about being cut. She doesn’t mention that every summer, she went overseas with her family to visit relatives. One summer, on this annual trip, she was taken to a clinic, and that’s where it happened.) 

Su  17:02 

I was eight years old, it was my mother and my auntie, my mother’s sister. And then a doctor, she was a doctor, performed the FGM, the khatna. But I was not, my opinion was not counted. 

Mariya  17:18

(Incidentally, this is called “vacation cutting.” It’s illegal in the U.S. and in about half of all European countries.) 

Su  17:26

And the same thing happened when I delivered my first child. I was a student in that hospital. And there were two structures. For me. It’s like with the racism, because it was a Spanish structure. I was … there was there almost no diversity in that region. I was almost the only Indian, there were no other people of color. And so, I was already exotified as I was studying there, and really (it was) like a bad experience. 

Mariya  18:03

(While Su was lying on her back having contractions, a nurse began badgering her about her accent and making rude comments.) 

Su  18:10

She, during delivery, she was trying to make fun of my origins, asked me where I come from while I was having a lot of pain. And then another man and a gynecologist came, and he performed wherever he wanted, without asking permission. 

Mariya  18:28

(Somebody in a health setting was doing things to her body without her consent. Again. Tthis time combined with obvious xenophobia. How could this not affect her?

Su  18:44  

I always used poetry when I was a teenager, because it was not just the khatna. The community– it was all the cultural norms and mandates behind all this. They were really traditional. We could not wear what we wanted. We could not do anything. It was like a prison. Poetry is the best way to express all this. 

Jonathan  19:07

Like an escape. 

Su  19:08

An escape, yeah.

Mariya  19:10

Yeah, I relate to that. I didn’t do poetry. But I’m a writer too. And I wrote a lot about my own experiences growing up in the Bohra community. I completely understand that, that need to tell somebody, you know. Even if it’s not shared, but to share it in the written word.

(As we talked, somehow the topic of fear came up: the specific kind of fear that haunts all of us who come from communities where FGM/C still happens. Su shared some news about one of her male relatives.)

Su  19:45  

The problem that we have now is that he found a partner, and they’re really great, good together. And she’s really, really, really, really, religious, and she of course she believes in everything that has to be done, according to the community. Even khatna. So now she’s pregnant. And of course, they said if it’s a girl, they will do it. 

Mariya  20:08

Yeah, that’s going to be very difficult. And you’re also 1000 miles apart so you can’t … It could happen, you know, in seven years. And there’s nothing you can do.

(One more quick bit of information. You know those people in Australia who were convicted and sentenced for doing FGM?C? They were eventually released on a technicality.)

Credits  20:38

To watch the digital story created by Su, visit our website at voicestoendFGMC.org.

Next on the Voices to End FGM/C podcast, looking at the medical and legal landscape in the US and exploring what we can do. This episode was created by Amy Hill and Mariya Taher, with editorial and production support from Armand Jayne and Kristel Mendoza Castillo. Featuring the music of Blue Dot Sessions. Special thanks to Su, Jonathan, and everyone who has told his story in a Voices to end FGM/C digital storytelling workshop.